Over at FB IPS Mark Schmanko posted
on how the media is slanting the Democratic delegate count by including
superdelegates therein, when the latter have not yet casted their
votes. It started a conversation with Mark Forman that would perhaps be
of interest here. For those sane enough to not participate in Facebook one can also monitor the ongoing discussion in this Ning IPS post and those following it.
Me: It's not like lamestream media and the DNC are doing everything in their power to feed Clinton and starve Sanders.
Forman: 200 delegates is almost an insurmountable lead given the proportional nature of the Democratic primary. Obama only won by only about 120 and never trailed by nearly these numbers. He was neck-and-neck or ahead the whole time.
For example, this weekend, even though Sanders won three states, Hillary slightly added to her delegate lead by winning delegate-rich Louisiana on Saturday by a huge margin.
The fact is Bernie is getting absolutely slaughtered in the minority vote - losing African-Americans around 4-to-1ish - which is a major part of the Democratic base. Hillary has won huge victories in every diverse state thus far and is poised for another 10% or even 20% win in Michigan - another diverse, very delegate rich state.
I will also point this out: Were Hillary only winning heavily among whites and the college-educated - as Bernie is - this would be considered deep evidence of her near-fascist status by many on the left. Bernie simply hasn't won one non-overwhelmingly white Democrat state. Where is the outrage on that?
Not a peep. Of course, because those clashing narratives would lead to cognitive dissonance.
Me: Yes Mark Forman, Clinton does have a big delegate lead based on votes, and likely it is insurmountable. But that doesn't answer the question posed by the article: that the superdelegates have not yet voted, so why include them in the delegate count at this time to make Clinton's lead seem even more formidable? Perhaps even to prevent Sanders supporters from voting in the remaining primaries? You don't address the very real issue that both the DNC and the lamestream media are deliberately trying to promote Clinton and block Sanders. Or the whole issue of a corrupt superdelegate system that circumvents democracy. If you can't see that despite voluminous evidence then perhaps it clashes with your narrative and would lead to cognitive dissonance?
Forman: I grant that the media has an agenda and an influence. The place where I question is exactly how much and agenda and how much of an influence. It is a matter of percentage and degree.
From your perspective - and from those I hear - there is a certainty and paranoia about the media which suggests near total control of the process. When you use terms like the "lamestream" media - that is what Sarah Palin also uses that to describe her own Manichean worldview where the evil forces of the media are set out to crush the conservative (white) Christian agenda. Swap out Palin and enter Sanders, and the worldview seems extremely similar.
To me, it is a matter of degrees and proportions. Take for example the two most establishment candidates on the right - Bush and Rubio - those with the most money and general support. They both have summarily crushed in the primaries. Bush - a dynasty choice - is simply out of the race. Rubio is headed there.
When it comes to Clinton, she is the establishment choice. No doubt that comes with some extra media support. But Clinton has also suffered some at the hands of the media - all her scandals etc., many of which are not really there. It is not one way. And she was far much more the establishment choice than Barack Hussein Obama last time and she lost to him. And it was a close race too. If they had a lot of influence, they could have theoretically turned it to her.
Another complicating factor: Bernie was not a Democrat for his whole career. Should he then expect to receive the same kind of warm welcome among elites and the media? I am not saying that is utterly fair, but I am saying that 30 years on the national stage as a Dem will win you some media points - especially being Secretary of State and the wife of an ex-pres.
So I don't deny the media can be corrupt, but I don't know how much them showing the superdelegates numbers or other issues is actually doing to the race. Bernie is still winning among people who would seem like Bernie supporters, and still losing by great margins with people - like AAs - who are likely to distrust the media in any case. Are AAs watching CNN and thinking - yea, that is likely a true report from a white media source? Or are they going to a person they tend to trust (for better or worse reasons) in Clinton?
I might add they went heavy for Obama last time, but was that the media too? Now the media hands them back to Clinton? 80% for Obama last time, now 80% for Clinton. That - though wildly implausible - would be impressive.
Clearly media control is imperfect, and I would suggest weaker than often given credit for.
If we did a pie chart, I think the difference between you and I would probably be that I give 15% of the causative pie chart to "lamestream" media. I think you would give 100% - or 100% to the combined overlords of media, corporations, the oligarchy, the military and the deep state. Whatever you want to add to the idea that consent is simply manufactored as opposed to co-created by individuals, behaviors, and cultures. AQAL basically.
Me: The fact that Sanders is doing as well as he is obviously negates at least some of the media ( and general 'overlord') influence. So no, not 100%. We the people are involved in this movement and it's showing. That you'd suggest that I imagine a 100% vast conspiracy though indicates at the very least some prejudicial hyperbole on your part, trying to make a straw man argument with your own loaded terms like 'overlords.'
And that you try to minimize the influence of the actual deep state (15%) while giving undue power to individuals has long been a valid criticism of the AQAL system itself. I would though give much more influence to manufactured consent (say 70%) than I would to the well-informed individuals on the issues (15%) in this race. The remaining % goes to well-informed but nonetheless well-paid enablers of said consent, like legislators. Just approximate figures.
And then there are the manufacturers of that consent, which are indeed part of an elite cabal as you so mentioned, the 1%. And to whom does this 1% invest their money? It certainly isn't Sanders. But if we are to believe Clinton it doesn't influence her or Obama. But who did Obama appoint to key finance positions? Who caused the financial crisis? How did they get in a position to do so in the first place?
Speaking of the Deep State, I highly recommend reading that book. And before one rails about it being paranoia they should refute the innumerable points of fact therein.
I agree with Wilber in Excerpt A that the "techno-economic base of a society constrains its various probability waves in very strong ways" and "clearly has a profound influence on the types of beliefs, feelings, ideas, and worldviews of men and women" (34-5). He cautions that we need not absolutize this quadrant since it is an AQAL affair, but also that we underestimate this influence at our peril.
In earlier versions of excerpt A he mentioned that the base influenced most people more than anything else but that has been eliminated from the latest version. However, in the same section he discusses how the LR base is always ahead of the LL social consciousness causing a lack of tetra-mesh wherein the latter must catch up over time. So indeed most people's UL, highly influenced by their LL cultural worldview, is not caught up with the new neo-Commons base already well underway. This lends support to the fallacy that there is an equal, one-to-one relationship between up-to-date individuals making informed UL choices about the predominant capitalist base, since their consciousness is still embedded in that base structure. That capitalist structure is itself in its most deficient or dissociative stage, and it, along with the type of correlated consciousness, needs to transform.
So no, individuals alone or collectively are not making 'integral', let alone well-informed, choices about this highly dysfunctional deep state of capitalism. The system does though have highly developed methods of propaganda to manipulate the masses and it works, so we continue to get people voting against their, and our society's, best interests.
Indeed we need folks who can see beyond that system and its influence. Again agreeing with Wilber our best shot at moving to that next wave of consciousness is to first implement the next wave of socio-economic base as exemplified by the neo-Commons. It's already well underway and has moved a lot of the millennials into that ecological consciousness, hence their support of Sanders. But to cling to the old base, even in its conscious capitalistic forms, while surely better than the dysfunctional deep state form, is still inculcating folks in the consciousness that meshes with that base.
Me: It's not like lamestream media and the DNC are doing everything in their power to feed Clinton and starve Sanders.
Forman: 200 delegates is almost an insurmountable lead given the proportional nature of the Democratic primary. Obama only won by only about 120 and never trailed by nearly these numbers. He was neck-and-neck or ahead the whole time.
For example, this weekend, even though Sanders won three states, Hillary slightly added to her delegate lead by winning delegate-rich Louisiana on Saturday by a huge margin.
The fact is Bernie is getting absolutely slaughtered in the minority vote - losing African-Americans around 4-to-1ish - which is a major part of the Democratic base. Hillary has won huge victories in every diverse state thus far and is poised for another 10% or even 20% win in Michigan - another diverse, very delegate rich state.
I will also point this out: Were Hillary only winning heavily among whites and the college-educated - as Bernie is - this would be considered deep evidence of her near-fascist status by many on the left. Bernie simply hasn't won one non-overwhelmingly white Democrat state. Where is the outrage on that?
Not a peep. Of course, because those clashing narratives would lead to cognitive dissonance.
Me: Yes Mark Forman, Clinton does have a big delegate lead based on votes, and likely it is insurmountable. But that doesn't answer the question posed by the article: that the superdelegates have not yet voted, so why include them in the delegate count at this time to make Clinton's lead seem even more formidable? Perhaps even to prevent Sanders supporters from voting in the remaining primaries? You don't address the very real issue that both the DNC and the lamestream media are deliberately trying to promote Clinton and block Sanders. Or the whole issue of a corrupt superdelegate system that circumvents democracy. If you can't see that despite voluminous evidence then perhaps it clashes with your narrative and would lead to cognitive dissonance?
Forman: I grant that the media has an agenda and an influence. The place where I question is exactly how much and agenda and how much of an influence. It is a matter of percentage and degree.
From your perspective - and from those I hear - there is a certainty and paranoia about the media which suggests near total control of the process. When you use terms like the "lamestream" media - that is what Sarah Palin also uses that to describe her own Manichean worldview where the evil forces of the media are set out to crush the conservative (white) Christian agenda. Swap out Palin and enter Sanders, and the worldview seems extremely similar.
To me, it is a matter of degrees and proportions. Take for example the two most establishment candidates on the right - Bush and Rubio - those with the most money and general support. They both have summarily crushed in the primaries. Bush - a dynasty choice - is simply out of the race. Rubio is headed there.
When it comes to Clinton, she is the establishment choice. No doubt that comes with some extra media support. But Clinton has also suffered some at the hands of the media - all her scandals etc., many of which are not really there. It is not one way. And she was far much more the establishment choice than Barack Hussein Obama last time and she lost to him. And it was a close race too. If they had a lot of influence, they could have theoretically turned it to her.
Another complicating factor: Bernie was not a Democrat for his whole career. Should he then expect to receive the same kind of warm welcome among elites and the media? I am not saying that is utterly fair, but I am saying that 30 years on the national stage as a Dem will win you some media points - especially being Secretary of State and the wife of an ex-pres.
So I don't deny the media can be corrupt, but I don't know how much them showing the superdelegates numbers or other issues is actually doing to the race. Bernie is still winning among people who would seem like Bernie supporters, and still losing by great margins with people - like AAs - who are likely to distrust the media in any case. Are AAs watching CNN and thinking - yea, that is likely a true report from a white media source? Or are they going to a person they tend to trust (for better or worse reasons) in Clinton?
I might add they went heavy for Obama last time, but was that the media too? Now the media hands them back to Clinton? 80% for Obama last time, now 80% for Clinton. That - though wildly implausible - would be impressive.
Clearly media control is imperfect, and I would suggest weaker than often given credit for.
If we did a pie chart, I think the difference between you and I would probably be that I give 15% of the causative pie chart to "lamestream" media. I think you would give 100% - or 100% to the combined overlords of media, corporations, the oligarchy, the military and the deep state. Whatever you want to add to the idea that consent is simply manufactored as opposed to co-created by individuals, behaviors, and cultures. AQAL basically.
Me: The fact that Sanders is doing as well as he is obviously negates at least some of the media ( and general 'overlord') influence. So no, not 100%. We the people are involved in this movement and it's showing. That you'd suggest that I imagine a 100% vast conspiracy though indicates at the very least some prejudicial hyperbole on your part, trying to make a straw man argument with your own loaded terms like 'overlords.'
And that you try to minimize the influence of the actual deep state (15%) while giving undue power to individuals has long been a valid criticism of the AQAL system itself. I would though give much more influence to manufactured consent (say 70%) than I would to the well-informed individuals on the issues (15%) in this race. The remaining % goes to well-informed but nonetheless well-paid enablers of said consent, like legislators. Just approximate figures.
And then there are the manufacturers of that consent, which are indeed part of an elite cabal as you so mentioned, the 1%. And to whom does this 1% invest their money? It certainly isn't Sanders. But if we are to believe Clinton it doesn't influence her or Obama. But who did Obama appoint to key finance positions? Who caused the financial crisis? How did they get in a position to do so in the first place?
Speaking of the Deep State, I highly recommend reading that book. And before one rails about it being paranoia they should refute the innumerable points of fact therein.
I agree with Wilber in Excerpt A that the "techno-economic base of a society constrains its various probability waves in very strong ways" and "clearly has a profound influence on the types of beliefs, feelings, ideas, and worldviews of men and women" (34-5). He cautions that we need not absolutize this quadrant since it is an AQAL affair, but also that we underestimate this influence at our peril.
In earlier versions of excerpt A he mentioned that the base influenced most people more than anything else but that has been eliminated from the latest version. However, in the same section he discusses how the LR base is always ahead of the LL social consciousness causing a lack of tetra-mesh wherein the latter must catch up over time. So indeed most people's UL, highly influenced by their LL cultural worldview, is not caught up with the new neo-Commons base already well underway. This lends support to the fallacy that there is an equal, one-to-one relationship between up-to-date individuals making informed UL choices about the predominant capitalist base, since their consciousness is still embedded in that base structure. That capitalist structure is itself in its most deficient or dissociative stage, and it, along with the type of correlated consciousness, needs to transform.
So no, individuals alone or collectively are not making 'integral', let alone well-informed, choices about this highly dysfunctional deep state of capitalism. The system does though have highly developed methods of propaganda to manipulate the masses and it works, so we continue to get people voting against their, and our society's, best interests.
Indeed we need folks who can see beyond that system and its influence. Again agreeing with Wilber our best shot at moving to that next wave of consciousness is to first implement the next wave of socio-economic base as exemplified by the neo-Commons. It's already well underway and has moved a lot of the millennials into that ecological consciousness, hence their support of Sanders. But to cling to the old base, even in its conscious capitalistic forms, while surely better than the dysfunctional deep state form, is still inculcating folks in the consciousness that meshes with that base.
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